storm jib dimension could give you a problem

[atles]

Lads
so i have been going out in moreton bay in higher and higher winds
moreton bay has it own very unique wave pattern so the expert tell me
it is not found in any other part on the Queensland coast
when the wind get up the wave are short and stand up like all water does by it much more aggressive
best i have done so far is 25 knots 1.8 m sea
(may not sound much to them boys in them 30-50 foot keel boat but in a 18 foot trailer sailor
i think it is doing well )

for me it is not fun it is like learning to drive a car again you know when you get it wrong and turns you white when you do
12 months ago what i do on a normal day out i would have turn the boat around and gone home

sorry now to the point
so your out there and wind hit 16 knots you have flatten and depower the sails
time to take down the working jib and pull out the storm jib all good beating to wind wood or close hauled.

wind jumps 18 knots one reef in the main yep good

wind now 20 knots and i have to turn on to a beam reach wind and waves on my port side opps
boat is over more than 20 degrees this is when i found out storm jib is to big !
not the best of time to find out .
if you try and put a second reef in
the boat turns because it is pull around by the jib.
lucky i was only on that tack for a few mins then on a run which was fine for the storm jib
i could put all the sails down and still do 3.5 knots off the waves just trying it out see how the boat handled
when i got home i check my jib size yes as per investigator sheet dimensions

peter touched on the subject here.
http://investigator563.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=78

so i ran off to see the boys from quantum sails they looked at the sail dimensions for the storm jib and said some thing does not look right
for cursing or racing in them winds .
as i have got a few sails off them the going to feed the boat dimensions and all the other dimensions in to there
computer they use for making racing boats sail for big competitions
and come up with the best for my needs for cursing

i will post here the answer.

[Steve]

Storm jibs are for storms, I don't go sailing in storms.

16-18 knots I want my jib powered up to go to windward, especially in chop.
20+ knots I keep the same jib up
Learn how to trim your sails to control the boat, sail changes aren't necessary on a 563 in moderate to strong winds.
Use your storm jib to hide the porta potty.

[Yara50]

Might be your sheeting angles and tensions could be the problems. With 2 reefs in the main and the storm jib, I have found the boat to be balanced. Was the main outhaul and boom vang tight? Jib sheet in tight?
Crudely speaking, if you reduce the jib area by half, you should also reduce the main area by the same ratio. Only problem is that the reduced jib area has its effective centre further forward, so needs to be sheeted in so that the top bit is not working in heavy winds. That means moving the jib sheet slider further backwards on the standard design. Are your jib sheets standard? There is not much adjustment. On a beam reach a barber hauler would also help pull the sheet out. Take a look at the attached pic, and I think I can see the jib sheet attached outboard rather than both sides to the cabin top. This gives a wider sheeting angle.

When it comes to the crunch, these boats are not really designed for going to windward in 25 knot winds.

[Mark]

All

I have a slightly different perspective. In the Autumn-winter-early spring periods here in Batemans bay I fly my standard jib and on rare occasions put in on reef but winds are mild and mostly comfortable.

In the summer I mostly fly my storm jib even when winds are modest say 14-18 knots. But we get strong NE winds in the early afternoon here and lasting to early evening. I find it better to just go with this set up. I never change sails and it just makes it comfortable and easy.

I still get good speeds and enjoyable sailing but don't get overpowered. Sometime I add in a reef. For me its a comfort thing and about management - conditions can kick up quickly and often I am offshore say 2-3 NM from the entrance to the bay.

I am a cautious sailor and sail for enjoyment not being a speed or fighting it out in tough conditions hero. My Maritime training reinforces my need for safety and so far it has paid off.

I know everyone is different but this is my lot and I am comfortable with it.

Fair winds

Mark

[atles]

thanks for the comments guys
if you never put it out there how will you ever grow as a sailor
their is always more than one way to skin a cat
so as always comment are taken on board and tried out.

Steve like mark, i am not in to loading up the cables to 100%
unless i have too
nature has a way of saying i got more push then you small humans will ever have.
but thanks for given me your comments as some you have given in the pass have put me on the right track
maybe if i was not 46 and did not have a kid on board i would give it a go.

Ian as always i stop and go over your word of wisdom thinking it over
i had the jib sheet slider right back and the storm jib is the standard design but i must admit i was spilling wind off the jib on that board reach
correct me if i am wrong i was thinking that at a point when having a flatten sail get to much you then op to spill wind from the sail ? or down that sail
for a small one or reef.
i will keep at it before i buy a smaller sail.
but your right 25 knot to windward is as high as i like to go on my own fee will lol
but the sea may have other ideas best stay to a sail and weather plan but it is never a guarantee.

mark thanks for your set up as i know batmen bay open out to the big ocean
the weather on the coast when it makes a change does so a lot faster than we would like.
4 hrs early i had 4 knots of wind and had my big jib sail up !

JUST A SIDE NOTE their is a get together of about ten trailer sailors in hervey bay around the end of September
i was thinking of joining them for the week end let me know if you like to join in .

[Steve]

Steve like mark, i am not in to loading up the cables to 100%
unless i have too
nature has a way of saying i got more push then you small humans will ever have.
but thanks for given me your comments as some you have given in the pass have put me on the right track
maybe if i was not 46 and did not have a kid on board i would give it a go..

Funny you should say that
By the time its 16 knots I already have 2 reefs in the main. I probably have less sail up and less stress on the rig than you or Mark.

[atles]

Hi Steve i think that is why emails
some time are hard to work out as your first post did not talk about you reefing your main
just keeping the jib up in all weather

so that is why me and mark were thinking you were loading up the rig
thanks for clearing that up

you also said Storm jibs are for storms, and that you don't go sailing in storms.
sorry to say i do as i need the sailing time to learn because i wish to be a good sailor
and one day sail in bigger boats and see the world.
the freedom of the sea just feels right to me. and i love it

[Steve]

I guess I thought I had already expressed a more detailed opinion in another thread. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=694
I did however mention leaving the jib and learning to bring the boat under control with sail trim, reefing the main being part of sail trim. My comments were not intended to describe what I do, more to say what I think you should be doing.
When I sail the 563 in choppy waters as soon as the wind gets to around 15knots I go straight into the 2nd reef. I do that because the wind is usually going to get stronger if it is a sea breeze( Freo doctor). If choppy going to windward, I want the jib to have maximum power so I don't down size or flatten the jib straight away. Flattening the jib will de power the sail and the chop will take away forward momentum, your course will slip away to leeward and you will just spend more time foundering about and having to turn away from the wind to build up speed again
I use the reefed main to steer the boat along with the rudder. One hand on the rudder the other on the main sheet either tensioning the sheet or easing the sheet to try to keep the helm in control.
Remember as a boat heels it naturally wants to turn to windward. Ruder, wind on sail pressure and lift /drag created from air over sails counter or exasperate that natural movement , so if one suddenly goes out of balance the boat reacts suddenly.
The jib on the 563 is the main engine for winds forward of the beam. The jib needs to be big enough to drive the boat in a given wind speed. Try sailing your boat main only??. When seas are choppy I am reluctant to downsize the jib and take away the power I need to punch into it, so I do everything else I can to keep the boat sailing forward and in control. If the wind gets that strong I need to downsize the jib,(after all trim tactics/ de-powering/ have been exhausted) I think I would be then only one stage away from survival mode if I was out in the ocean.
I believe that once you have 20knots of apparent, the 563 no longer is a leisurely sail. You are going to have to be on the ball with the helm and trim and be prepared for some heel if you plan to keep sailing forward. It becomes hard work and if your out in open rough waters it can be exhausting.

[atles]

thanks you Steve words of gold i will keep trying to get it right

[atles]

update the technical sheet is in from Quantum and it's a shade higher
The Association dimension (about 4.2 sq m) Quantum sail area 4.7 Sq m

gentlemen i stand corrected i will keep using me storm jib