INVESTIGATOR 563

I know this topic has properly been covered before, but as our sport is ever changing, I would just like to know how people have set their boats up for heavy weather, I would say anything over 35+knots is heavy weather.

Has anyone purposely taken there investigator out in over 50+ with time for the sea to be a washing machine, how did they setup the boat, any tricks?

My back ground was enduro riding, you have to overcome every physical obstacle that comes your way, and because sailing is a thinking man’s aquatic sport, I think the approach is very similar.

I enjoy hearing other people’s stories, especially when there is a severe challenge. I personally haven’t had my "Anne Marree" out in 40+knots so would like to gather some knowledge from people who have. Please no people who say "why do you want to go out in that weather". Here to gain knowledge!!!

So if you have time to write your story's I would love to hear.

Kev
Over 25 knots my recommendation is to try to stay home and read a good book, or buy a keelboat! Whilst the Investigator 563 is a stable little boat, it is not designed for offshore heavy weather sailing, and I think there would be two problems:
[*]The sail area you could carry, (assuming you rigged the boat to reduce sail area down that far), vs windage ratio would be poor, and it would be almost impossible to sail to windward.
[*]If you tried to motor, that kind of wind for sure would develop choppy seas, and with the transom bracket mounted outboard motor, the prop would be in and out of the water, resulting (as I have experienced), in the prop shear pin failing, if not damaging the motor.

However, in very sheltered waters where there is limited fetch to generate large waves, you may just be able to motor-sail to windward.

It is not a matter of man facing challenges, it is a shallow draft sailboat facing design limitations.

Hi Ian
You said those three horrible words "stay at home"!!! Where is your sense of adventure, I have met a couple of young people with investigators who are still interested in pushing their little boats limits, including me. For the more seasoned sailer, where's your yarns?

I didn’t want to get into discussion of how the boat should or shouldn’t be used, BUT, Yes the investigator has allot of windage and yes it does affect it pointing high, but I have managed to point high and move forward in winds above 35 in fact have managed to move pretty high to windward with just main and double reef and I think that most other points of sail the little boat would cope pretty well, with her high ballast ratio you could take a strong beam sea. As far as motor goes it's auxiliary propulsion.

I am not talking about blue water sailing, just in general, would like to hear peoples stories of their heavy weather sailing, whether it be coastal or bay sailing. Maybe not even high winds or large sea’s maybe just massive running tides or beaching's or those nights that scared the crap out of you on anchor. I love hearing a good story from an old or young salt.

Or did I put this question in the wrong section?

Just a good yarn!!

Kev
As the person responsible for this web site and in these litigous times, I have to be conservative. Anyway, as an engineer, I believe in using a piece of equipment for the conditions it was designed for, and only pushing it when there is no alternative.

How did you measure the wind speed when you were beating to windward in 35 knots with main alone?

Is that why not many engineers’ race motorbikes?

Maybe wrong but pushing a bike and pushing a sail boat are similar, except it definitely hurts when you have pushed the bike too far!

When I first started sailing I wasn’t sure how hard I could push a sailboat until I met and old salt in the Loch Sport pub, his thought was your like a cork with a nail hanging out the bottom, wind knocks you down, it spills and you stand up! And this appears to be true, keep the water out, and I have no doubt that an investigator will stay shell up! I trust my boat ‘Anne Marree’ will take more than I can.

BOM was my measure for wind speed, and I didn’t beat to 35 with just 2 reefs in main it was 30

35+ ( reports from other boats that were racing was it was over 40) with standard jib and 2 reefs in main, but the water was over cabin windows and the rear lockers flooded, when the squalls come through, No choice as I don’t have storm headsail and when your single handed you don’t have opportunities to fluff about. The other boats around me got the opportunity to see the antifoul on my skeg keel though. My choice would be 3 reefs and storm sail; I think gunwales would still be under water though, but when the water floods the rear lockers it can be expensive, I lost my battery drill 

I understand your position you can’t be seen to condone reckless behaviour, but that would just about be anyone who puts to sea! Or at least any single handed sailor who puts to sea! But it is about resilience and overcoming obstacles, how many other sports do you try to harness and to some extent try to control Mother Nature in all her fury.

I have read many of your comments in tech section and all advice is much appreciated. I have 2 questions.
1: mask pump, allot of people brace inside cabin, I haven’t feel this, but is obviously a problem?
2: you mentioned about an extra set of stays, for coastal work, these would be side shrouds, not extra back side stays?


MY LIFEJACKET AND HARNESS ARE ALWAYS ON AND CLIPPED IN!!!

I do think all sailors should test themselves and their boats but in very small increments as the difference in wind strength at 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 knots is profound. Here are some facts adapted from:

http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/98_11_PerfectShape/Main.htm

Double the wind speed from say 5 knots to 10 knots, and the pressure (force) on the sails is quadrupled. Increase the wind from 5 to 15 knots and the pressure is nine times bigger - to 20 knots, and a force 16 times as big will be heeling your boat over.

Using this data, 50 knots of wind is 10 times more than 5 knots, and would equate to 100 times more force than that felt at 5 knots. In my opinion, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING ANYWHERE NEAR THAT KIND OF WIND IN AN INVESTIGATOR 563 ???????

OK - off the soapbox.

35 knots (49 x more force than 5 knots) was my maximum in Pip (see Queenscliff to Werribee Race 2011).

At the start we were running / broad-reaching with a double-reefed main and no headsail (mine is standard). We experienced no problems. As we started to work to weather, this time with headsail up, I would have preferred to have put in the third reef as we were overpowered far too often for my liking. Unfortunately my reefing system, since changed, was not able to accommodate this. I think beating in big weather is not about the pointing as it is better to drop the bow off a tad and actively steer for the [breaking] waves. You need to keep momentum up as small boats can be stopped dead, only to be sucker punched by the next wave. Waves are a big issue in heavy winds.

I've read a bit about storm tactics, and the Sydney Hobart race and I think you have to be active even if you aren't racing anymore. This takes a lot of energy and I dare say stamina and if you are going solo then you have to husband your strength. One way to do this might be to steer to an alternative port, even though your car and trailer isn't there, and it will be a hassle to get it. Better an expensive taxi fare than the alternative. I have on a number of occasions gone out to have a look only to decide no, and come back in to where I started. I have also cut short a trip to 'beat' the weather front.

I think my boat with the headsail furled away, lashed up, and the main down to the third reef would calm things down in a big blow (35+ knots) but I'm not sure I would have a lot of options about my direction of travel. I'm not sure I would like 50 knots as suggested at the beginning of this thread - that's for big boats.

Thanks Peter, great insight, Fantastic link, there is so much great information on the net! Sounded like a blood pumping trip, bet you had a big smile on your face, when you finally tied of, no doubt very exhausted? How would Pip have performed with the storm head and triple reef, do you think you would have had the speed to keep your nose on course better?

I don’t have the fear of being rolled in an Investigator (but things can happen) I have been knocked down many times and have yet to get the mast to touch down, but in my Ultimate 16 I had the mast touch down once in three knockdowns. What Ian was saying about our windage being a big problem with heavy weather sailing and the breaking sea’s knocking the speed off, 40knots maybe the limits of pointing? I suppose it would be great if you were in the position to run beam most of the time, seems to be the investigator’s strength.

One of the guy’s I worked with who was in the Sydney to Hobart in 2002 when the ‘perfect storm’ hit, said they had to beat 80km before they could tack, think it can affect us all big or small. Coincidently on a sad note my ‘Ann Maree’ is named after a good friend ‘Ann-Maree Pope’ who lost her live on the ‘Excalibur’ in the same storm. Neptune has her now, and she looks over my little boat (think you have to be a little superstitious when you’re a sailor).

Some Good reading ‘Trekka Around The World’ a little boat that survived a cyclone of QLD coast when much larger vessels surcombed! A truly amazing story of a skipper with knowledge far exceeding his age.
Will still continue to do very small increments to build my skill, as how do you improve, if your environment is always controlled and always stays the same 10 to 20knots ?

Of the track but.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/occupyin ... 293cj.html

My Thoughts.
NEVER PUT YOURSELF IN THE POSITION TO NEED RESCUING!!!

Kev
The reinforcement under the mast step is to reduce deflection of cabin top under load. If you see your leeward shroud going slack when heeled, it is either the cabin top going down, or the deck being lifted by the windward shroud. The shroud U bolt needs a long tapered backing plate to minimise that, and the cabin top reinforcement does the mast compression. Unfortunately the curved panel archway in our boats is not all that good at supporting the cabin top.

The extra shrouds are so that you do not have all your eggs in one basket with only one shroud on each side. The mast itself is pretty strong, so the shroud is the weak point.
see my original comments:
http://www.investigator563.com/forum/vi ... ?f=4&t=267

I'm not sure I have seen my mast pumping but it could happen - I have certainly seen a slack leeward shroud. Has anyone come up with a temporary compression post for inside the cabin?

Never put yourself in a position to need rescuing.

This is a a sensible and prudent thing to say but I wonder, with all the truly remarkable stories of rescue from the sea, for example Bullimore in the Southern Ocean, and the amazing 1998 Sydney-Hobart, whether many of us truly think like that.

I completed a radio operators course a couple of years back and there is a button, on some new radios, that automatically tells Canberra who you are , where you are and that you are in trouble (you have to register your radio and boat first). There are EPIRBS too. With this technology I think a lot of us think that help WILL come. I like your statement because it assumes that help might NOT come. Plan for the worst while hoping for the best is both prudent seamanship and motivating because it maintains hope.

I have book by the Dashew's (Surviving the Storm) which is about storm tactics which I read and re-read as I challenge myself and my boat. They recommend to blue water sailors that they practice in small boats in lesser conditions (its all relative they claim and I think they are correct). In fact it seems to me they are recommending practice in conditions a little bit like we are discussing in this thread with our favorite boat.

I have mentioned waves in this thread and this is practically a separate topic to managing your boat for wind pressure. I would like to hear people's thoughts about helming a boat in waves.