New owner and several issues

[Elandra]

I'll try this again after the problem with the server going down and the old backup. Thanks for those that responded before but unfortunately I didn't get a chance to have a good look at those responses before it disappeared.


Hi all, I have just bought an Investigator 563 here in Western Australia and was hoping the Investigator community could help me out to expedite its way back into the water. There are several issues I am trying to resolve. These are:

Trailer imbalance:
There is almost no weight on the draw bar and it is unstable when towing. I note most other photos of Investigators and trailers have the axle position almost directly below the aft extent of the aft portlight whereas mine appears about 300mm further forward. I am considering moving the axle back about 250mm to give about 10% of laden weight on the towball. Is this a common issue with these boats and trailers?

Centreboard Pivot pin:
The boat was reportedly leaking when I bought it so the first job was to drop the centreboard. I have done this now and was pleasantly surprised to see it was made of stainless steel. The pivot hole in the centreboard case however was damaged and the bolt was therefore wobbly which no doubt caused the leaking. I will have to grind back around the hole and build this up with glass and epoxy. The access is very restrictive from the bilge and getting tools in there will be difficult. I might get a Dremel type tool in there but it will be slow. Do you have any suggestions for doing this job?
I don’t much like the design of the original centreboard pivot assembly. There is no spacer to prevent the bolt from tightening up the centreboard and housing. I thought about making a spacer from some stainless pipe so the bolt can go though and tighten up on this rather than directly on the casing. However has anyone found a better solution?

Hatch repair:
The sliding hatch has the tabs broken (common problem) and it is cracked. I will repair it properly but it appears very flimsy and I would not want to stand on it. Do these need reinforcing?

Pop top securing:
There is no way to lock the pop top down which is concerning. I note other Investigators seem to use external metal latches or internal elastic tiedowns. What is the best way to secure it?

Small mainsail:
The boat came with a very small mainsail (see photo with drill for scale) in addition to a full size fully battened mainsail. It looks original as it has the logo and is hardly used. What was the purpose of this tiny sail?

Tiller pin or bolt:
My tiller is secured to the rudder with a bolt. This is not a problem as the mainsheet does not cross the transom. Are the original tillers fitted with a removeable pin?

Mast compression post:
There is an aluminium compression post fitted to the vessel. The base has rotted out and therefore it is now not doing anything. I note the original Investigators did not use a post. Is a compression post required or desirable? If so I would rather strengthen the bulkhead to remove it and open up the space. This will however be a challenge as the bulkhead is not directly under the mast and the loads will have to be transferred to it.

Mainsheet position:
The mainsheet position has been relocated to the companionway at top of seat level. This is a pain as it severely affects access to the interior. I am contemplating relocating it back to the transom but am concerned whether this position is a problem due to the ergonomics of operating the mainsheet backwards. As this is not a sport boat maybe having to quickly dump the main is not an issue. Any advice on this?

Winch position:
The boat has a couple of winches mounted on the cockpit coamings. They appear to have been relocated from the cabin top as there are remnant bolt holes showing. The headsail sheeting position appears to be now on a short track mounted on the side decks. The original boats sheeted to the cabin top via a 2 to 1 pulley system I believe. I guess it depends on the cut of the sails but is there any advantage to sheeting from the cabin top?

Photos and manuals:
I have searched hard on this website for photos of interiors and any technical drawings but have found little. Do they exist somewhere in a folder somewhere?

My apologies for all these questions at once. I may leave any modification of running rigging issues until I have used the boat and have some experience with it. However, there are several things that have to be sorted out before it goes back into the water. The aim is to set the boat up for easy single handing and to make the interior a little more liveable with a simple galley for overnighters. Note, I have owned several cruising yachts from 28 to 65 foot over the last thirty years so am not new to all of this. I sold my last boat about 5 years ago and said that was it. However, I miss the sailing so much that I had to feed the addiction once more, albeit in a much smaller way. Thanks for any help you can provide.

Regards

Andrew

[Geoff]

Hey Andrew,

Thanks for re-posting, champion.

Re trailer nose-weight - I have owned many trailers of different types, still have a few including 2 investigators on their own trailers.

I have found that while negative ball weight is dangerous, too much is not good either, and 10% is excessive. You could get away with it if your tow chariot was a RAM or similar, but for mid-size vehicles 5% seems to be a good thing. If you do some net research in caravan forums (Australian) you will find where others have done extensive research and testing to verify that.

The good old 10% rule apparently has its roots in the USA from way back and is appropriate to very powerful tow cars travelling at speeds much higher than is legal in Oz. In Europe apparently 3-5% is considered the norm.

That said, is moving the winch post forward an option? That's all I have had to do to alter my nose weight for my boats.

Good luck with all!

[Geoff]

Hey again Andrew,

re tiller/rudder - one of my boats I believe has the production rudder and the tiller is an interference fit in the headstock, with no bolt or pin. Others can confirm?

The other has an aftermarket rudder, it had a bolt and nut securing the tiller. The tiller can tilt up to make room in the cockpit or to adjust to comfortable height when steering.

I cut the head off the bolt and drilled a hole in it to take an r clip. So I can still tension it with the nut but to remove it I can back the nut off a turn then remove the r clip.

[Ozzie]

Hello Andrew. Welcome to the forum. I’m sure there’s much we can help with. I think Geoff has covered trailer stuff fairly comprehensively.

Interesting variations come up all the time. From the pic it appears that your trailer may have been shortened from the standard length or possibly that was a local build idea. It’s not uncommon to cut the the last crossmember off to remove a rusted rear. If your trailer has in fact been shortened it’s odd that the ball weight is so low as removal of the rear cross member would have offset the balance the other way to a certain extent.

On my trailer the ball weight was originally almost nonexistent with the outboard on the rear bracket . As such I now always carry it inside on the floor over the axle. With a bit of judicious packing and replacing the large battery I had in the lazaret I got the ball weight to a respectable 120 kg probably too much as Geoff said but I do 1km at urban speeds to my local ramp every 18 months to service my moored 563 so I’m not too concerned about stability at speed. It rides ok when I’ve towed.

As a test maybe you could try removing any gear in the rear parts of the boat, anchor, outboard if it’s on the bracket and check again. Is there any scope to move the winch post a little further forward as suggested?

I grabbed a quick pic of a previous 563 that had been sold. Does appear to be a slightly more rearward placement of the axle on that boat. Hard to tell . Note the longer trailer overhang on that one . Mine is about the same.

[Ozzie]

Hello again. Thought I backed this bit up, but couldn’t find it. So from scratch.

A common fix to support the cabin top is two posts, one either side of archway entry to the v berths. I think the boat Geoff bought from Ian B may have this ? My boat, Spritzig II has two very thick timber infills either side of the archway and a louvred timber door between. The beefed up arch using whatever method I don’t think is or needs to be directly under the mast to support it. It just adds stiffness to the whole structure. Certainly helps if there is 100kg crew walking about up there.

You don’t need the door obviously. My setup was done by the original owner, not me, and has the advantage of more privacy in the head and looks fine too. He may have sailed with an all female crew like me. Also makes separate rear cabin easier to heat in cold weather.

There are some quite good interior fitouts that have been done some should still be around . Use the “ search “function. Try keywords like galley, fitout or similar.

64D15CE8-135A-4447-8603-FFD305B92D65.jpeg (45.6 KiB) Viewed 5177 times

https://johncrawfordmarine.com.au/investigator-563

Lots of info here including stuff from Moreton Investigator Society. Closest thing to an Investigator bible that’s been published.

My usual advice to new owners is try out the way the boat is rigged a few times to see what you like and don’t like, but as an experienced sailor you probably have defined preferences already. I think the main sheeting at the cockpit rear is the go personally, but many have changed it. I have no winches and use the 2:1 blocks on the jib sheets, as per Kevin Shepherds original design. Works fine, but that’s me. I doubt there are two 563’s rigged the same.

Come on gents , lots of input we could be giving Andrew here!!!

[IanS]

Welcome to the group Andrew.

Centreboard Pivot pin:

See if you can find the detailed repair description posted by Peter T. viewtopic.php?t=1158&hilit=centre+centreboard&start=40

The other Andrew also has a detailed post. You definitely want a nylon flange of some kind on either side.

Hatch repair:
Mine is flimsy, I don't stand on it.

Pop top securing:
I used four of these on the inside, so far so good. https://www.whitworths.com.au/canopy-lo ... black-90mm

Small mainsail:
Looks like a handy storm sail?


Mast compression post:
Mine just has the laminated arch. I don't see much compression in the cabin top. But I only weigh 60kg...

Mainsheet position:
Traveler on top of the transom between the pushpit rails, works great. I think the heavier T-track on mine might be a later addition.

Winch position:
Mine has two small self tailing winches either side of the cabin top. I can't help thinking that the original 2:1 plus clam-cleat arrangement would have been easier to use single handed. But I do use the winch to raise the mast so it does come in handy.

Photos and manuals:
https://johncrawfordmarine.com.au/investigator-563

Enjoy!

[Peter T]

Hi Andrew, as far as documents are concerned, you can download quite a lot of different documents from John Crawford website. Link attached.
https://www.johncrawfordmarine.com.au/investigator-563

Feel free to contact me regarding any individual issue you may have, as I have had to fix just about everything that you mention and probably more. I did post a reply to you on here previously, but I think it got lost in the sky somewhere.
Anyway, good luck with it and as I said, feel free to PM me if you need.
Cheers

[Elandra]

Hi Geoff, Ozzie, Ian and Peter,

thanks very much for posting some information. The Crawford website was very useful and a great resource for trailer sailers. It would be good to get all those documents on this website in case it disappears one day.

Yes I think the 10% trailer towball weight is a little excessive but trailers do tow better with the extra weight. I have a sailplane which I tow and it is much less than 10% as most European stuff is. It is OK up to 100km/hr but gets a bit squirrely above that speed. It would be easier to relocate the axle rather than the post as all the rollers etc would have to be modified as well. Also I can remove all the rust on the axle and springs at the same time. However I will try packing it differently and move the outboard to the sole to see if this is a simple solution.

My rudder is a bit different to the standard by the looks (see pic). It is taller and has the tiller mounted high to clear the transom. I want to relocate the traveller back to the original position so will have to modify the rudder as well now by the looks. Was this an aftermarket rudder do you think?

I did rig the mast the other day and flexed the forestay. Without the compression post there is a large amount of movement in the cabin roof and cracks in the gelcoat were more obvious. Easiest solution is to repair the corroded compression post and reinstall it. It has a screw fitting so it can easily be removed while at anchor etc. I note that there is no adjustment for the forestay and that you have to really pull the halyard tight to get the toggle in position for the shackle. My old RL28 had a block and tackle with a v cleat to tension the rig once connected. What do most people do?

As it turns out there is one single poptop latch inside the boat. This seems adequate to secure the front but I will install a couple more for the rear. The elastic loops are a good idea though.

I am progressing quite well with the fibreglass repairs and reinforcing to the seat tops, sliding hatch and anchor locker lid. They just require sanding and gelcoating now. As I have to redo the centreboard pivot pin holes in the centreboard case I spent a bit of time trying to work out how to do this in such a confined area. In the end I removed the cabin sole entirely to get better access as trying to repair this area would be very difficult to do properly. See pictures of the sole removed which may be useful to others considering the same thing. It took about an hour being careful with an old chisel and screw drivers. It is tabbed down in several locations with fibreglass which wasn't to difficult to remove. However investigation into this bilge area beside the case has raised a few issues such as the fibreglass over the ballast is very thin which may need reinforcing and there is a break in the rear end of this area just next to the centreboard lifting tube that is cut away (see pic red circled). This break in the top fibreglass extends down to the bottom of the keel fibreglass and the manual bilge pump pickup hose sits in here. I investigated this "hole" with a dental mirror and the lead ballast is visible. This means that the lead ballast in the keel has been open to water probably for the life of the boat as it appears to be original as there is no evidence of fibreglass been cut away. This seems quite odd although I guess there is not much harm having the lead exposed to water. At least if there is a leak in the hull it will show up as water in this area. Down side is that if the keel gets a hole in it from a grounding the water will leak rapidly inside. Now I did a lot of research in this forum and I see Peter has done a lot of work with his boat in this regard. There are also several others that have this thin fibreglass topping either side of the centreboard case and other bilge ballast related problems. So the question is now do I try to dry out this area and seal up this hole or leave it as it is?

Regards

Andrew

[Peter T]

Hi Andrew, as for your flexible cabin roof around the mast step, I would say from your description that the plywood core in the roof and / or your mast step is either wet or rotted out. I would really like to see you do a repair on that. There is an article of mine on here about rebuilding the mast step and epoxy injecting the core of the roof.well worth a read I would think. But besides that, I would suggest that a compression post set up, either 1 central or one each side of the opening with a beam across the top would be necessary. When looking at this, it would be best to make sure that any compression post set up is very securely and solidly based against the bottom of the boat / keel/ lead . If it can be extended to sit securely on the front lead ingot , then that would be best. But what you don't want is the flexing in the roof or mast base. Remember that when sailing, the whole weight of the boat is transferred from the sails straight down the mast to the hull to make the boat move forward. The loss of your mast or rig is something you definately need to avoid.
IanS put a link in his comments to my centreboard pivot hole repair. I presume you have read that.
Cheers

[Elandra]

Hi Peter, thanks for your prompt reply. I will investigate the roof below the mast base. I did do a tap test and it seemed ok when i bought the boat but ill check it out further. Seems odd to me that the mast base is forward of the bulkhead about 150mm and i think this is the main reason for the flex. It really should sit directly above and this would of avoided the problem. I had thought about reinforcing underneath to transfer loads back to the bulkhead but not such an easy thing to do. As it has a compression post already (although base corroded which is fixable) that does go through the sole and directly to the keel top i will likely stay with this.

Yes i did see your pivot pin repair and have studied it well. Great explanation and photos so thanks for that. I will do a very similar repair as you did. I have spent hours trawling through these posts to find info. Great resource but i wish it was split into categories and that the search function included a filter for images. A picture paints a thousand words! Is it possible to include technical data somewhere such as shop drawings etc and/or put the images into the gallery under categories? I would do it if the moderator allows.

Regards Andrew