Sail sheets blocks, sidestays, halyard and deck questions

[TrueBlue]

Hi all,

Ok, don't faint been a while.
Thought I would start here and see what I get. Did a few things to the boat today, including getting the mast up and sorted so I now know what goes where and how to get it up. Have to laugh it looks like a match stick to me compared to my old RL and of course my time on keelers (o and now a heavy cat).

I have a couple questions I hope someone can help with.
These pics make it look dirtier than it really is, but never to mind, you get that

I have 2 ubolts on each side as if for sidestays, but only 1 on each side is used, wondering what this forward might be for? Pic below

This 2nd pic below, shows a stand up block on the cabin, have on both sides, both have totally stuffed sheaves in them.
Now I would expect that the track behind it is where there should be a block(not there at the moment and none found) and heady sheet lead through there. The standups I can not figure, unless these had some sort of storm heady at some stage perhaps, otherwise I'm stumped.


Now one other question that has me a bit stumped too
The mast has 3 what appear to be Halyards, one for the main that is in mast and is wire and rope, one that I'm guessing is the for the heady also wire and rope and runs on outside to a pulley at forestay hound fitting with a swivel, so must be for heady. Now 1 more that is also on the outside, also runs to another pulley at forestay hound and is all rope, it is bowline tied off through a mast cleat and the other end just reaches deck at base of mast when set free and has nothing as in no fitting as if to be perhaps tied to whatever with bowline I guess.
Any ideas anyone?
I did think Hmmm kite, but that does not make sense as it should be at top of mast if for that, well that is what I would expect anyway.

Ok, lucky last
I know it has probably been like this forever, but;
I noticed the deck in front of mast step, has a lot of flex in it. It seems strange to me that the split bulkhead is where it is actually as this deck flex is approx 30cm forward of this. The actual mast step has no real support directly under it. Is this a problem area?
I have seen the extra you have Ian on your boat fitted by previous owner and have been thinking something similar, although I was thinking more front to back than side to side, with a support stepped to the top of bulkhead and front of cabin, just not sure what and if it is worth the effort?

Thanks in advance all, see what I get

[Yara50]

Easter Weekend and sadly I am playing with computers instead of my boat!

So- my guess- isn't is fascinating trying to read the mind of previous owners? Extra pulley on mast maybe for topping lift. I have mine on the side, but cleated on the aft part of the mast so I can fiddle while standing in the cabin.

The sprung pulleys could be to lead the halliards back to the cockpit. Mine are just fitted onto small saddles, but a spring loaded one would be better.

Shroud supports- The standard rigging is with a backstay. However, some boats have had their shrouds further aft, and dispensed with the backstay, a la Careel 18. For me one of the positives of the Investigator 563 is that there is a backstay, which I can use to tension the forestay without creating massive loads on the shrouds, and also the ability to let the main right out when running.

Flexing deck is a worry. Might be water has got into the wood laminate and rotted it. Guess all you can do is add bracing below. This can be checked to see if it will work by having a helper inside the cabin with a measuring stick to see if the inside is also flexing. If it is, then the bracing will do the job.

[TrueBlue]

Hi Ian,

Thanks mate for your reply.

The side stays on this boat were already on the rear fitting and I left them as is for now, perhaps it coud be run without a back stay but it does have an adjustable one on it anyway, so will stick with it.

OK, so there is wood in the cabin roof is there, Hmmm wouldn't have thought so anyway will look into that!
The deck definitely flexes up front of mast, even when walking on it. I will have to check the flex with mast, I will look at that when I lower the mast down and see what difference there is with inside measurements floor to roof.

Now I have further questions and it is about the sail plan and sheeting arrangements.

This boat has what I would call a small heady that I am guessing works off the cars on top of the cabin, figured that out as can be the only reason there is cars and track up there.
It also has a Genoa comes back to almost rear of cabin with a nice rounded foot. Problem can not see where the sheets would run to, nothing there anywhere. I would have expected either at least a block or perhaps track and cars back there somewhere?

Now I noticed on the pic you had in last reply Ian - for sidestay, it has have track and car on lower deck level, is this for Genoa use at a guess.
I also noticed what looks like a small winch on top of cabin in that pic? Would not have thought be needed but perhaps?

I have looked everywhere for a sail plan and running rigging plan but no luck. I could figure it I'm sure but perhaps one of you could assist with drawing/pics even just wording should be fine for me to figure out how it should be done on an Investigator.

As to the sails I have here;
Small jib? Measures roughly 2.4metres along the foot and it must be shorter in the luff as it fits to a wire strop as mentioned. I suspect it is somewhere between the jib and storm jib measurements for an investigator. I don't think it is as small as a storm?
This one will go to the top of forestay 7/8 mast height, using a wire strop that is fitted to stem fitting (read also anchor roller) and tighten up fine. This is a hanked on sail.
What I believe is a Genoa, has a foot of about 3.1 metres so fits the measurements given for Investigator Genoa - will go to top of forestay and tighten up well, but is fitted directly to the Stem fitting, if use strop (which would help over lifelines etc) it will not tighten. Being connected to stem, does create a bit of an issue with the pushpit and lifelines as you can imagine?
This sail is not hanked, it is a wire luffed sail making me think even more it is a Genoa for light conditions (say to around 12-15kts at a guess??), it also has a swivel fitting on it's head and can not workout for the life of me why it would have this, can not see how it could be fitted to a furler with it having to be fitted way down low on Stem.

Does the Genoa run this way or should it actually run from top of mast and use strop to over come lifeline issue perhaps?

The Halyards on this boat are small, perhaps 5- 6mm rope and some are rope and wire, is this normal.
The wire and rope Halyard for heady has a nick out of the wire so will need to be replaced, maybe alright for a while, but then again you never know, not to mention what those meat hooks are like in your hand considering rope or even small spectra rather than wire any thoughts?

The main sheet is about at a guess 8mm at least.
What do you all use for heady sheets?
What size blocks do you have for cabin top cars for heady?
what size blocks and sheets for Genoa do you use?

Sorry for all the questions, but there is a good chance I would over engineer as not use to such small stuff

I would really like to checkout the swing keel, but that seems to hard at the moment, maybe later or I will just put her in the water and give it a shot. Not like it the end of a day if it doesn't come down, just don't sail hard to wind eh!!

Ok, that will do for now.

[Yara50]

Jay
Lots of questions, is good, will try to answer some.
Halliards- yes small size is normal.

Jib sheets. The original design is with two blocks at the clew, one for each sheet. For the normal headsail there is no need for winches as this gives you a 2:1 reduction. See pic for detail of sheeting on cabin top. Will check but I think the size is 8 mm.

The swivel at the top of the jib halliard is for the original furling. I have discarded the furler, but still have the swivel. As for Genoas, I think they vary a lot. Yara's is from an 18 ft skiff, and is flown from the masthead. Sheeting is simply though deadeyes on the quarters (you can see one in the pic, being used for the mainsheet track instead) and back to simple jamb cleats.

Sail dimensions you can get from a file in the part of the forum as a pdf file.
Hope this helps. Surprisingly I have heaps of photos but none of the running rigging.

Deadeye for genny, jib swivel.

Pittwater, but see the jib sheets

IMG_0024_2.jpg (35.04 KiB) Viewed 9883 times

[TrueBlue]

Awersome we getting somewhere Ian

Ok, so the Clew on Jib has 2 blocks and the sheet is doubled got that, Mind you I am not a fan of that set up, if a sail starts flooging for any reason make sure you out of the way
The sheet comes back via a deadeye on the travellers(that explains why this one has a shackle either side, guess deadeyes wore out) and to jam cleats either side of cabin. 8mm sheets sound good more for a bit of grip than anything else I guess.
The halyards would maybe be 5mm rope and I think I might change them anyway, do away with the wire(spectra 4mm would be more than enough I suspect).
Had a good look at masthead today(only because I had to pull it down bloody main wire halyard slipped off sheave and locked up - that sheave has to go!!) there is another sheave in there at front so reckon that is going to be for the Genoa, and can later be for a kite too That will bring it over the lifelines using the strop system. I may even put another strop(maybe longer almost to top of push pit, would work for a kite too!) so can do easy sail change as mentioned the Genoa is wire luff no hanks - makes it easy.

There is definitely no fittings to stern for the Genoa sheets etc, so will have to do something about that. Perhaps they ran through the mooring cleats that are back there? Bit rough but guess it would work, not sure about sheeting angles though
I may even fit a small t-track and cars and then back through deadeye to cleat as that can certainly help with sail set in various wind speeds. May as well do it right and be done with it. Will see

Does your Genoa also have the blocks at clew or do you run sheets direct off clew?

Ok, that all for now, see what else I can come up with down the track, thanks again mate.
This forum certainly a quiet one isn't it
Perhaps I should copy this and move to TSP as I go as well, could be useful to someone else and lead them here as well??

[Yara50]

Jay
Sad to say I have never flown the genoa. Pittwater winds are flukey, and usually pick up in the afternoon, so I don't bother with the genny. Also reluctant crew need to be nannyed along gently.

I agree about being wacked by the jib sheet blocks, but we use a downhaul on the jib, and that gets it out of the way most times.

[TrueBlue]

Hi,

Could someone be able to advise the length of the Head sail sheets.
From what has been said they need to be secured at the car on cabin top, run through blocks on headsail clew and back through deadeye of block on car to cleat at back of cabin.
I'm thinking something around 7-8 metres would be in the ballpark.

Now while I am at it, is this same for Genoa or could you get away with single direct pull from Genoa Clew to deadeye and cleat?
I'm thinking as Genoa would not be used in heavy airs it would be workable without blocks on Clew.

Thanks in advance.

[BobK]

Jay,

We sail with the genoa almost all the time. Haven't used the jib for ages as the boat seems a bit underpowered with the jib and most of the drive comes from the headsail. Only rig for the jib if we are anticipating winds over 15kts. Mind you others will probably tell you different and swear by the jib, but we like the genoa. Can't be too bad because Margaret is a nervous sailor and she likes the genoa.

Our boat is set up to manage the genoa using a single winch on the transom. I don't know if there is/was a standard arrangement and I guess ours is a one-off. But it works well. The sheet runs from the clew through a track mounted on the deck beside the cabin. You can see it on the attached pic. The sheet runs from the track to a block on each side of the transom and then to the winch. The mount for the winch is custom made ss. Bit of co-ordination required when you tack because you have to release one sheet from the winch and wind on the other but with a little practice it's fine.

The genoa is fairly large, and without the winch it would be a handful. Don't know how it would be rigged without the winch. The previous owner set it up this way so that the genoa can be managed from the tiller position for single handed sailing. I also use the transom blocks and the winch for the spinnaker.

Welcome to come and have a look any time. We are in Hendra.

[TrueBlue]

Awesome, thank you Bob, appreciated.

Yes it does look like your small snubbing winch is an add on for sure. An interesting concept and can understand it can be a bit fiddly with a tack. Bet it gets even more exiting if a gybe with a kite up is done

I am considering that I may even fit 2 small winches on the cabin top at some stage. These could be used for all sails from here, heady, Genoa and kite if and when I obtain one. It would do away with the blocks on the Heady Clew (which I still really do not like the idea of) with small winches fitted on cabin, can run sheets to them easily from anywhere using blocks or deadeyes.
Can get small #14 winches for about $90 each that would do the job nicely. I may try the Genoa as I'm thinking and see how it goes and if need be fit winches later?
I have heard of this being done on Investigators but not seen it. Actually just had another look, the pic that Ian posted of 'Able Tasman' actually shows the winch setup as I'm thinking.
As the Investigator has measurements for Genoa and kite it seems strange no winches standard if they were needed. perhaps to keep costs down for production and if needed fit as an option??

How do you find the Genoa with the Lifelines and pushpit when on a reach or running? Seems a fair bit would be bunched up over them to me. As mentioned I am considering taking the Genoa Halyard from the masthead as it could also be used for a Kite later. Currently this boat has 2 halyards running down forestay, one could be used for a topping lift for kite if need be, with kite flown from masthead.

Anyway, thanks again for the info, now I go think a bit more about options for sheeting fittings By the way, I see your sail # is 32, like I have mentioned elsewhere this one is #33 by the look of where the numbers were on main.

[BobK]

Jay,

he Genoa does foul the pushpit a bit, but not so much as to be a problem. The sheet goes outside the sidestay and the clew can foul the lifelines if hauled in tight, but again not a major problem.

The genoa is set up the same as the jib i.e. uses the same wire halyard. I have spinnaker block about 200mm higher up the mast than the forestay.