The topic is shifting but will painting the boat realise a significant difference in the sail price?
Peter
Racing (like a snail).
Re: Racing (like a snail).
Peter
Pip #127
Pip #127
Re: Racing (like a snail).
MUST RESIST TEMPTATION...Dr. Peter wrote:The topic is shifting but will painting the boat realise a significant difference in the sail price?
Peter
Unless its done very well, or the boat was pretty grim beforehand, an obviously painted fibreglass boat would put me off. I'd rather know what's really there.
When I learnt to sail in Mirrors, Sabres and scow Moths, the prevailing wisdom seemed to be that timber boats should be painted on the outside for the best surface, but varnished on the inside so you could see the condition of the timber.
CANNOT RESIST TEMPTATION...
Nope, shouldn't affect the price of sails at all...
Potential convert to Investigating.
Re: Racing (like a snail).
At the risk of resurrecting a near-dead post, I thought I'd add my agreement to the original proposition of this thread: that the Investigator is built for stable comfort rather than any attempt at 'speed'.
I note this after coming stone motherless last in our club racing yesterday. I certainly did not expect to win, but I did not expect to come home about 40 minutes behind the lead boat either.
To be fair, there were two long runs on our triangular passage course, and the majority of boats hoisted the kite and took off. I don't have one on my boat, and goose-winging with a whisker pole was a very poor second!
However, even with a kite I doubt if we'd have caught up that much. We were just sluggish all the way round.
It's disappointing to come in so late, given that everyone else has just about packed up, had a coffee or a beer and a chat, and then gone home - just as you're clearing the ramp. It defeats the whole purpose of being in a club if you don't get to mix with others at the end.
So now I'm stuck with the dilemma of trying to get more speed out of my boat by splurging several thousand dollars on new sails - including a kite - or just accept that I own a cruiser and leave racing to others. I suspect the latter, as I crew already on a keel boat at another club. Also, competent kite work relies on a regular competent crew, which is also a problem. Certainly not something for a single-handed sailor to attempt safely.
I suppose the owners of Ultimates and Hartleys are 'in the same boat', so to speak.
Cheers,
I note this after coming stone motherless last in our club racing yesterday. I certainly did not expect to win, but I did not expect to come home about 40 minutes behind the lead boat either.
To be fair, there were two long runs on our triangular passage course, and the majority of boats hoisted the kite and took off. I don't have one on my boat, and goose-winging with a whisker pole was a very poor second!
However, even with a kite I doubt if we'd have caught up that much. We were just sluggish all the way round.
It's disappointing to come in so late, given that everyone else has just about packed up, had a coffee or a beer and a chat, and then gone home - just as you're clearing the ramp. It defeats the whole purpose of being in a club if you don't get to mix with others at the end.
So now I'm stuck with the dilemma of trying to get more speed out of my boat by splurging several thousand dollars on new sails - including a kite - or just accept that I own a cruiser and leave racing to others. I suspect the latter, as I crew already on a keel boat at another club. Also, competent kite work relies on a regular competent crew, which is also a problem. Certainly not something for a single-handed sailor to attempt safely.
I suppose the owners of Ultimates and Hartleys are 'in the same boat', so to speak.
Cheers,
Geoff
Investigator 563 'QUMBU'
Geelong, Victoria, Australia
Investigator 563 'QUMBU'
Geelong, Victoria, Australia
Re: Racing (like a snail).
Yara has a masthead genoa which I believe came from a 16 footer. Poled out might give a bit of speed.
Ian B
Ex Investigator 563 #50 Yara
Ex Investigator 563 #50 Yara
-
Olmate-sail156
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:53 am
Re: Racing (like a snail).
Hi Geoff,
Glad I'm not alone on this one.
We raced(?) yesterday in a two lap triangle course and completed the first lap as the slower other boats finished the second. Demoralizing. The other slow boats ( a Triton 26 and Compass 28) weren't there.
To be fair though we did get second in a 3 race regatta a while back. Good breeze and I was on fire, working every movement in the wind. Telltale obsession. Absolute constant (I wish) concentration. This I think is the key to coming last with less margin. We actually came in ahead of some boats on that occasion.
Handicaps help if place on the point score rather than sailing in company is important to you.
When I complained a while back the advice I got was mainly reduce weight and get it forward. The balance is very touchy and if it's aft the bum drags. In light wind sitting on the low side gives some heel, and gravity then improves the sail shape. Less is more sailwise. Etc.
The renovation of the exterior (and interior) finish turned out very satisfactorily. She's a new boat inside and out.
What a marathon. I think you did the same.
I went to Clark rubber and got that seal for the front hatch as you suggested.It's good and watertight.
All in all it's a damn good stable, safe boat. Even though it blows over easily it won't go any further than 90 degrees before it pops up again having rounded up 90 degrees.
It's a snail you can love.
Graeme
Glad I'm not alone on this one.
We raced(?) yesterday in a two lap triangle course and completed the first lap as the slower other boats finished the second. Demoralizing. The other slow boats ( a Triton 26 and Compass 28) weren't there.
To be fair though we did get second in a 3 race regatta a while back. Good breeze and I was on fire, working every movement in the wind. Telltale obsession. Absolute constant (I wish) concentration. This I think is the key to coming last with less margin. We actually came in ahead of some boats on that occasion.
Handicaps help if place on the point score rather than sailing in company is important to you.
When I complained a while back the advice I got was mainly reduce weight and get it forward. The balance is very touchy and if it's aft the bum drags. In light wind sitting on the low side gives some heel, and gravity then improves the sail shape. Less is more sailwise. Etc.
The renovation of the exterior (and interior) finish turned out very satisfactorily. She's a new boat inside and out.
What a marathon. I think you did the same.
I went to Clark rubber and got that seal for the front hatch as you suggested.It's good and watertight.
All in all it's a damn good stable, safe boat. Even though it blows over easily it won't go any further than 90 degrees before it pops up again having rounded up 90 degrees.
It's a snail you can love.
Graeme
Re: Racing (like a snail).
Geoff,
You say your boat was sluggish all the way round the course. I would like you to elaborate. What were the conditions - wind and sea-state? Pip is a boat that likes a bit of breeze.
What about your own race mentally - were you on the ball showing 'absolute constant concentration (Graeme - Olmate)'? You say you came in 40 minutes after the lead boat - how did that work out on handicap? Was that boat well sailed that day? I have raced as crew in the Timpenny Titles last year. It was sensationally close racing but the guys that won the titles (a nice couple from Bateman's Bay) ran from one end of their boat to the other in every race, and PUSHED ... EVERYTHING! Watching them made us work harder. Happy to say we beat them once or twice but mainly if they made a mistake and we didn't.
I563s have a handicap of 0.594 but we aren't an active racing class as far as I can tell, and who knows if this CBH is appropriate.
Another thing I notice is because we are mostly cruisers at heart, we don't seen especially precious about sails. We tend to select sails that suit the predominant conditions we sail in and because of this there appears to be some variation in the sails set by forum members especially in the headsail department. What are the size and condition of your headsails?
I run the standard-sized headsail. It furls onto a wire luff and once rigged I can't change it. It is a good compromise but not all that good in very light conditions. So I had a code zero custom made. This is made from exotic material has a rope luff and connects to the bow via a furler and the spinnaker halyard. Upwind its sheeted like a big genoa, although it won't point as high as one, but poled out downwind it provides a heap of drive and is relatively easy to manage. Gybing and tacking is completed by furling it in, changing direction, and then re-setting it again.
A possibility for you is a baby spinnaker, possibly off a dingy, which will augment what you have, especially downwind, but not present a big management problem for irregular crew. I probably have one in the shed if you want it (I can't comment on the condition but it might help you prove the concept).
For my money the worst thing on our boat is the spade of a rudder we carry. Rather than tucking slightly under the pintles it points backwards leading to quite excessive weather helm in my opinion. This is the equivalent of putting the brakes on and yes, a boat would feel sluggish. In my judgement - feel on the helm is critical to speed. On Pip I find reefing early helps a lot. You tend to go forward rather than to leeward and drag is reduced significantly. On the Timpenny I mentioned above I work the mainsheet and traveller and I am continually asking the question how does it feel on the helm. When overpowered I work the traveller before the main to ease pressure but maintain speed. We usually sail well heeled over and it is my job to maintain this angle. In comparison, my I563 Pip does not have a traveller and it is a weakness in the sail controls in my opinion. If I ever raced her seriously I might do something about it. As it stands now I usually allow my mainsheet block to move to leeward before tensioning - this reduces heeling and increases driving force and takes some of the pressure off the rudder.
What we need to do someday is get a few guys together to tune their boats and capture a few measurements. Back in the day when I began sailing I had an old Flying 15 and it seemed sluggish. I went and visited the UK website where it had a few measurements set down. One of these was the distance from the top of the mast to the centre of the transom. We made our boat the same as that recommended and followed a few other recommendations and guess what, we transformed the boat. Suddenly the controls appeared to actually make a difference. It wasn't a slug and once you can sail fast you can work on the mental part of sailing.
Peter
You say your boat was sluggish all the way round the course. I would like you to elaborate. What were the conditions - wind and sea-state? Pip is a boat that likes a bit of breeze.
What about your own race mentally - were you on the ball showing 'absolute constant concentration (Graeme - Olmate)'? You say you came in 40 minutes after the lead boat - how did that work out on handicap? Was that boat well sailed that day? I have raced as crew in the Timpenny Titles last year. It was sensationally close racing but the guys that won the titles (a nice couple from Bateman's Bay) ran from one end of their boat to the other in every race, and PUSHED ... EVERYTHING! Watching them made us work harder. Happy to say we beat them once or twice but mainly if they made a mistake and we didn't.
I563s have a handicap of 0.594 but we aren't an active racing class as far as I can tell, and who knows if this CBH is appropriate.
Another thing I notice is because we are mostly cruisers at heart, we don't seen especially precious about sails. We tend to select sails that suit the predominant conditions we sail in and because of this there appears to be some variation in the sails set by forum members especially in the headsail department. What are the size and condition of your headsails?
I run the standard-sized headsail. It furls onto a wire luff and once rigged I can't change it. It is a good compromise but not all that good in very light conditions. So I had a code zero custom made. This is made from exotic material has a rope luff and connects to the bow via a furler and the spinnaker halyard. Upwind its sheeted like a big genoa, although it won't point as high as one, but poled out downwind it provides a heap of drive and is relatively easy to manage. Gybing and tacking is completed by furling it in, changing direction, and then re-setting it again.
A possibility for you is a baby spinnaker, possibly off a dingy, which will augment what you have, especially downwind, but not present a big management problem for irregular crew. I probably have one in the shed if you want it (I can't comment on the condition but it might help you prove the concept).
For my money the worst thing on our boat is the spade of a rudder we carry. Rather than tucking slightly under the pintles it points backwards leading to quite excessive weather helm in my opinion. This is the equivalent of putting the brakes on and yes, a boat would feel sluggish. In my judgement - feel on the helm is critical to speed. On Pip I find reefing early helps a lot. You tend to go forward rather than to leeward and drag is reduced significantly. On the Timpenny I mentioned above I work the mainsheet and traveller and I am continually asking the question how does it feel on the helm. When overpowered I work the traveller before the main to ease pressure but maintain speed. We usually sail well heeled over and it is my job to maintain this angle. In comparison, my I563 Pip does not have a traveller and it is a weakness in the sail controls in my opinion. If I ever raced her seriously I might do something about it. As it stands now I usually allow my mainsheet block to move to leeward before tensioning - this reduces heeling and increases driving force and takes some of the pressure off the rudder.
What we need to do someday is get a few guys together to tune their boats and capture a few measurements. Back in the day when I began sailing I had an old Flying 15 and it seemed sluggish. I went and visited the UK website where it had a few measurements set down. One of these was the distance from the top of the mast to the centre of the transom. We made our boat the same as that recommended and followed a few other recommendations and guess what, we transformed the boat. Suddenly the controls appeared to actually make a difference. It wasn't a slug and once you can sail fast you can work on the mental part of sailing.
Peter
Peter
Pip #127
Pip #127
Re: Racing (like a snail).
Hi Peter (and others):
No, you haven't annoyed me. I work in the political end of government, so you'd have to try much harder than that to do me any long-term psychological damage. I've been worked over by experts!
The reality is that I've been pretty busy, given the start of sailing season for the two clubs I sail with: the GTYC and RGYC.
The encouraging news is that in last Sunday's club race at GTYC, I sailed QUMBU single-handed with two other boats in Div 1, followed 20 minutes later by five boats starting in Div 2. It was a short triangular race of just over an hour, with winds of about 10-12 knots constant from the SW and very little swell.
The conditions proved ideal for my boat, with a bit of heeling at times through the stronger gusts, but nothing alarming and no need for any reefing.
Unusually, all boats finished within four minutes of each other, and I won Div 1 by a minute ahead of the next boat on adjusted handicap (0.594).
Admittedly, the other two Div 1 boats did not haul spinnakers for the windward leg (due to inexperienced crews I think), so that was a great leveler. Had they done so, they should have come home about 10 mins ahead of me. I did haul the plate up going downwind, and I'm convinced that gave me an extra half-knot or so.
Anyway, it was a great confidence boost for me, and demonstrated that my sails were still pretty good for their age - as was the boat.
Surprisingly, it was also fun and easy sailing single-handed - particularly as I had done a lot of modifications on my boat to do this (as I can't always get reliable crew).
So I'll be out again next Sunday week, weather permitting.
I also think the weekly Saturday racing I've resumed on the S80 keelboat at RGYC pays dividends in better reading wind and working the mainsheet and traveller (which is my role in our boat's crew).
Cheers,
No, you haven't annoyed me. I work in the political end of government, so you'd have to try much harder than that to do me any long-term psychological damage. I've been worked over by experts!
The reality is that I've been pretty busy, given the start of sailing season for the two clubs I sail with: the GTYC and RGYC.
The encouraging news is that in last Sunday's club race at GTYC, I sailed QUMBU single-handed with two other boats in Div 1, followed 20 minutes later by five boats starting in Div 2. It was a short triangular race of just over an hour, with winds of about 10-12 knots constant from the SW and very little swell.
The conditions proved ideal for my boat, with a bit of heeling at times through the stronger gusts, but nothing alarming and no need for any reefing.
Unusually, all boats finished within four minutes of each other, and I won Div 1 by a minute ahead of the next boat on adjusted handicap (0.594).
Admittedly, the other two Div 1 boats did not haul spinnakers for the windward leg (due to inexperienced crews I think), so that was a great leveler. Had they done so, they should have come home about 10 mins ahead of me. I did haul the plate up going downwind, and I'm convinced that gave me an extra half-knot or so.
Anyway, it was a great confidence boost for me, and demonstrated that my sails were still pretty good for their age - as was the boat.
Surprisingly, it was also fun and easy sailing single-handed - particularly as I had done a lot of modifications on my boat to do this (as I can't always get reliable crew).
So I'll be out again next Sunday week, weather permitting.
I also think the weekly Saturday racing I've resumed on the S80 keelboat at RGYC pays dividends in better reading wind and working the mainsheet and traveller (which is my role in our boat's crew).
Cheers,
Geoff
Investigator 563 'QUMBU'
Geelong, Victoria, Australia
Investigator 563 'QUMBU'
Geelong, Victoria, Australia
Re: Racing (like a snail).
Hi Geoff i have raced wagtail every year in the marly point race and a few other races i have had a 4 &7& 9 and with my skiff sailing partner 1st these boats need to be sailed hard. You need a big fat kite and put it up in strong wind dont be shy.the investigator loves it strong. Ill admit i race dingys every weekbut wagtail is no slug i have had her doing 10.5 with the kite up for 3 hrs(in20kts) she points the same as most yatchs 45to the wind.Ross
Re: Racing (like a snail).
With our two respective skippers away sailing a 40ft Farr back from Vanuatu, my wife and I decided to sail Pip in the inter club regatta between Yarrawonga YC (my club), Albury-Wodonga YC and North-East Wind Sports (the ex Mokoan Club). We sailed in the trailerable division, which was quite small because AWYC won't trailer their boats to YYC, against an RL24, a Castle, a Farr 6 and Pip.
The breeze was about 12 knots and there were bullets of about 18 knots. With no centre-plate in the first race, we reefed the main. We messed up the start but so did all the other trailer sailers and we completed the olympic-style course as best we could. Skidding to leeward was a problem so we sailed relatively short boards before tacking. It was great to have a competent crew (my wife) as we tacked smartly and got going again real quickly. Off the wind we left the code zero alone and for the sausage went wing and wing (no pole required - see attached image).
Between races I managed to get the centre-plate halfway down and this made a considerable difference to our windward work (more discussion elsewhere) as we could sail longer boards between tacks. There was no skidding that I could see which made this tactic worthwhile. When we went out for the second race we started to shake out the reef but then, seeing the other boats obviously overpowered, put it back in; this turned out to be a good decision.
We came dead motherless last, but on handicap, came second in both events, even beating the RL24, who with three crew set the spinnaker, and we beat the much faster Castle 650. They had problems and did not sail at their best. It took them quite a while to pass us.
We had our race faces set and tried really hard to go fast and make good tactical decisions; I think we did.
My conclusion is Investigators have many qualities but going fast is not one of them, although off-the-wind I think they could be. If we had been braver I wonder if our code zero might have got us closer to that very well sailed Farr 6. Now we'll never know.
The breeze was about 12 knots and there were bullets of about 18 knots. With no centre-plate in the first race, we reefed the main. We messed up the start but so did all the other trailer sailers and we completed the olympic-style course as best we could. Skidding to leeward was a problem so we sailed relatively short boards before tacking. It was great to have a competent crew (my wife) as we tacked smartly and got going again real quickly. Off the wind we left the code zero alone and for the sausage went wing and wing (no pole required - see attached image).
Between races I managed to get the centre-plate halfway down and this made a considerable difference to our windward work (more discussion elsewhere) as we could sail longer boards between tacks. There was no skidding that I could see which made this tactic worthwhile. When we went out for the second race we started to shake out the reef but then, seeing the other boats obviously overpowered, put it back in; this turned out to be a good decision.
We came dead motherless last, but on handicap, came second in both events, even beating the RL24, who with three crew set the spinnaker, and we beat the much faster Castle 650. They had problems and did not sail at their best. It took them quite a while to pass us.
We had our race faces set and tried really hard to go fast and make good tactical decisions; I think we did.
My conclusion is Investigators have many qualities but going fast is not one of them, although off-the-wind I think they could be. If we had been braver I wonder if our code zero might have got us closer to that very well sailed Farr 6. Now we'll never know.
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Peter
Pip #127
Pip #127